.303 Epps Elwood Epps's dream rifle!

[Wouter Roets]

Hallo Shaun

Hierdie is wat ek benodig.
1)Dopkapasiteit van n gevuurvormde dop. Weeg n lee dop. Weeg dieselfde dop gevul met water tot heel bo. Maak seker die water maak nie n minuskus nie en moet gelyk wees met die dop se rand. Jy kan so drupel skottelgoedseep bysit as jy sukkel. n Inspuiting werk baie goed. Trek die twee gewigte af van mekaar wat jou dopkapsiteit gee.
2) Looplengte. Vat n skoonmaakstok en druk hom voor in jou loop tot onder aan jou gespande slotgesig. Die mate moet wees tot die kroon van jou loop.
3) TPL van die gelaaide rondte. Dit is ook handig om jou jump te he tot by jou lande.
4) Spoedlesing tesame met die lading gelaai. Hoe meer hoe beter. Gee ook sommer die afstand van die chrony vanaf die loop.
5) Koeelgewig asook die prudukkode indien moontlik.
6) Tipe primer gebruik.

Groetnis
Wouter

[shaunbaisley]

Did some work on the Epps' new Boyds Classic stock this weekend. Bedded the action with Pratleys Steel and free floated the barrel. Then started working up the loads to be taken to the chrono for speed testing before sending the data to Wouter for him to work his QL magic.
Fire-formed Norma cases were trimmed to 55,5 mm and averaged 61,3 grains of water capacity (Hmmm. Supports Wouter's concerns about the pressures developing with some of the loads I fired previously)
Cases are neck-sized to about 1mm from start of shoulder, and Speer SP 174 gr bullets seated with their base level with that point, giving a COL of 77mm.
I am surprised that even at that COL the bullet is nowhere near the lands - in fact I cannot get engagement with the lands at any COL. What's with that?? Squinting up the barrel seems to show clear start of rifling so it doesn't appear to be erosion of the throat. Is it possible that the free bore is cut that long? The best would be to make a chamber cast, but I don't have access to the means.
Ah well. Let's see how they shoot.
BTW, the loads I have prepared for the range start at 47 grains of S355 (Lot 010) and work up in 1 grain increments to 52 grains. Depending on speeds achieved, I may not fire all loads at the upper end.
I will report back when I have had a chance to get to the chrono.
Shaun

[tripodmvr]

Dont let the long leade make you despondent. It is cut to accommodate a 215gr bullet. a long jump does not point to poor precision and many European rifles with long leades shoot MOA without a problem.

[shaunbaisley]

Thanks Tripodmvr.
That makes sense although I would have thought the Brits had abandoned the 215 grain bullets by the time they got the Yanks to make the P14s for them before WW1.
My first step is to chrono the loads I have prepared, and then second, to find a 100m range to see how the selected loads group. Anything approaching 1MOA will be more than good enough for the type of shooting I may do, where distances will rarely exceed 200m. That fact will also play a role in deciding the velocity I select (although human psyche tends to suggest that bigger and faster is better, kind of like buying a 300kph sports car to use on 120kph roads :-))
Be safe.
Shaun

[shaunbaisley]

Hi Wouter.
I spent the last hour at the range with the loads I worked up for the P14-based Winchester-made 303 Epps.
I will try to add as much information as possible, to reduce the possibility of missing a vital piece of data for the QL exercise you so kindly offered to run for me.
1) Cases - Norma fire-formed and sorted by weight, average 176 grains +/- 1 grain
2) Case length - 55,5 mm
3) Case capacity - 61,3 grains water (no meniscus)
4) Powder - Sonchem S355 lot 010
5) Bullets - PMP soft point 11,3 g (174 grain) No product code but the old blue and white boxes still with the price tag R29.50/100.
6) Barrel - 625 mm (24,6" to closed bolt face)
7) Twist - 1:10
COL - 77 mm (Base of bullet at base of neck)
9) Primer - Federal 210
Let me start by saying that the 48 grain load gave a peculiar result. No idea why. According to a graphic progression the average speed of the 48 grain load should have been 50 fps higher than it showed over the chrono.
OK, to the loads tested and the speed attained;
1) Factory PMP 303 Br MkVII 174 grain Full jacket Bisley ave 2321 (2333 2307 2324) ES 26
Reloads
2) 47 grains - ave 2548 (2550 2546) ES 4. Only 2 fired because I expected the recommended load to come from 48-51 grain range. Maybe a mistake given the ES.
3) 48 grains - ave 2542 (2516 2552 2579 2521) ES 63, almost exactly the same fps as the 47 gr loads.
4) 49 grains - ave 2643 (2681 2638 2645 2609) ES 72 Nearly 100 fps higher than the 48gr load. Hmmm!
5) 50 grains - ave 2689 (2679 2707 2666 2707) ES 41
6) 51 grains - ave 2734 ( 2754 2698 2717 2734) ES 56, case filled to base of neck/base of bullet
7) 52 grains - ave 2775 (2789 2761) ES 28, only 2 fired, slightly compressed load. I'm guessing the pressure may be too high, although there are no visible signs of such.
My amateur observation is that if the 48 grain load had been 50 fps higher, the loads would have shown a linear increase in speed of 40-45 fps per grain of additional powder in the load. I can't explain the readings I got for the 48gr load. I tried to be meticulous for consistency.
So, I look forward to what you can tell me regarding this rifle/cartridge combination. I have read up about the rationale behind the QL programme, and while highly technical, I think I understand the basis for the methodology.
I thank you once again for the time and effort you are prepared to put into helping me develop a safe and superior load for this old lady of a rifle that is masquerading as a hottie.
Cheers.
Shaun
PS. The distance from muzzle to chrono = 2 metres

[tripodmvr]

I am being cheeky and giving you some info. Wouter seems to be away as I have not seen him post for a while.

1. Normal distance for setting up a chrony is 5m or close to it - the gases blasting out of the barrel tend to give false readings.
2. Your cases are very short at 55,5mm - the max is 56,44mm, so 56 would be fine.
3. With data supplied the highest node is at 2700fps - this is also at max pressure of 49K psi (mostly done for Lee actions I would think). With the ES being so high I would guess that 50,2 to 50,5 would give this average speed.
4. You did not supply group sizes?

[shaunbaisley]

Cheeky or not, that is very interesting.
Do I understand you correctly - 2700 fps is generated with only 49 000 psi.
This is in a P14 action which I believe is capable of handling pressures of 60k psi quite comfortably.
Not that I really need the velocity, but what would be the node or nodes at those pressures?
WRT the case length, the barrel is marked 2.222" which I guessed is supposed to be the chamber length, but I have two boxes of as yet unfired new Norma 303 Br cases, and they measure 55,6mm.
Cheers Shaun

[tripodmvr]

The speed of 2700 is at just over 50K psi.

The next node up is way beyond the max pressure of even 60K psi which would normally be accepted for the P14 action. The 2.222 = 56,44mm is the max case length.

Cases stretch so starting at 55,6mm will allow for a few firings.

[Wouter Roets]

Hallo Shaun

Jammer dat ek jou skrywes gemis het aangesien ek so bietjie weg was. Gelukkig was die ou staatmaker, Oom Maruis daar om jou leiding te verskaf. Soos gewoonlik is sy berekeninge sonder foute en is jou hoogste nodespoed 2700ft/sek met hierdie kombinasie. Jou volgende nodespoed is ver oor die 60 000psi merk. Vir interesssandheid is jou hoogste veilige spoed(60 000psi) so 2820ft/sek met die 174 greiners.

Dopvulling met die 2700ft/sek lading is 100% wat uitstekend is vir die lading. Alhoewel die drukvlakke relatief laag is vir jou spesifieke slotaksie bly dit n sinlike een. Soos jy reeds gese het beteken spoed net mooi niks as dit nie vergesel word deur akuraadheid nie. Ek glo in elk geval dat die 174gr PMP sy hande gaan vol he teen die spoed en vleisskade sal baie hoog wees met die konvensionele loodkern koeel. So hou dit maar ingedagte met skootplasing en vermy maar die groot bene van die dier.

Soos Oom Maruis al reeds gese het is goeie groepering nog steeds heel moontlik met n lang vryboor soos in jou geweer. Onthou nou om daai spoed te slaan en dan net met jou TPL korter te werk totdat jy gelukkig is met die groepering. Moet nie groter verstellings maak as 0,2mm nie. Vir interessandheid het ek gevind dat werklike nodespoed gewoonlik so bietjie laer le(10-20ft/sek) as wat die voorspelling is op QL met n lang vryboor. Toets dit ook maar alvorens jy begin speel met jou TPL. Net dan vir klarigheid toets jou groepering in die 2670-2700ft/sek band en speel dan met die TPL van die lading wat die kleinste groepering gee.

Die finomeen wat jy ervaar het met twee ladings nl 47gr en 48gr wat dieselfde spoed gegee het noem ons n loading pocket. Hierdie is n algemene verskeinsel by meeste kalibers en het nogal n redelike tegniese verduideliking waar n klomp faktore saamwerk om dit te veroorsaak. Wat interessand is is dat wanneer jy gelukkig genoeg is om n nodespoed in so n loading pocket te kan slaan jy n wenner lading het met n baie bree nodeband. Ongelukkig vir jou blyk hy net laer as jou nodespoed te wees met hierdie kombinasie.

So laat weet ons asb wat maak jou geweer teen die voorgestelde nodespoed. Hoop jy kom sommer gou reg.

Groetnis
Wouter

PS Daar is jy nou weer vinniger as ek Oom Maruis!

[tripodmvr]

Gesien jy was stil die laaste paar dae en het toe parmantig geraak. Gedink die hogere spoed met die S341 lui gevaarklokkies.

[shaunbaisley]

Great stuff Guys. Many thanks to you both for your inputs. My knowledge base is expanding fast since I registered on this group.
First, just so that we are comparing apples with apples, please note that the loads I tested earlier with S341, and which gave slightly higher speeds than the S355, were loaded to a COL of 75 mm while the S355 loads tested yesterday were at 77 mm. That would account for much of the increase in pressures and hence speeds.
Second, the" load pocket" phenomenon is totally new to me. I had never heard of that before. I was scratching my head, imagining that I had forgotten to adjust the powder measure after checking the mass of the charges thrown, but knew that was impossible, so I was at a loss to explain the results. I feel much happier with a clear answer to the riddle.
Third, yes, I am aware of the fragility of the PMP 174 grain bullets, particularly these which were from PMP's earliest days. Once I am happy with the load, I will try the Claw bullets. I found out that the manufacturer of Claw bullets lives about 20 kms from me in a seaside village outside of my home-town East London. I have spoken to him and he is agreeable to me coming around one day to see the manufacture of the heads. He makes a .311 180 grain that might be just the business at 2700 fps. Yes, I realise I will have to ask you to run the QL exercise again if I change bullets, but it should be pretty close to the 174 grain load.
Fourth, getting back to Oom Marius' point about case length, I measured one of the old PMP 303 Mk 7 cartridges straight out of the box with the red kudu bull (remember them?). The case length is 56.16mm. Once fire-formed in the Epps, that shrinks to 55,4mm. The brand new 303 Norma cases, bought more than 20 years ago, measure 55.66 mm out the box. I don't have any once fired fire-formed cases to see if they shrink by an equal amount, but I assume that there will be some reduction. That explains the "short" case dimension I am using for the testing. I trimmed all the cases used in the tests to 55,5mm. Most were there already, but where necessary I trimmed to achieve uniformity.
Finally, it may be some time before I can report back on the accuracy tests. I do not have ready access to a 100 m range and the nearest friendly farmer is 150 kms away. When the opportunity arises, be sure I will be back to report progress. Oom Marius, I have taken note of your point about the distance of the chrono from the muzzle. I noticed when doing the tests with it set at 2 metres from the muzzle, that the blast was pushing the chrono around on the table it was mounted on. I think they set it as close as that to reduce the chances of some idiot shooting the screens, or worse, the box itself.
Nogmaals, baie dankie vir die hulp. I am about to go into retirement so the rekindling of my old hobby is almost like starting again.
Regards,
Shaun

[tripodmvr]

My mistake on case length. 2,222 = 303; 2,156= 54,76mm = 303 Epps. Trim to length of 54,5mm should work.

Your S341 load at 2944fps = 75 000 psi = proof loads for rifle testing. Your lucky the P14 is a strong action.

I am adding a sketch of the case dimensions as well as a graph showing the load pocket phenomenon.

Last but not least. If you are retiring at age 65 you are older than what I am.

303Epps case dimensions.gif

Laaigrafiek.JPG

[Wouter Roets]

Hallo Oom Shaun

In al my Ackley kalibers is my doplengte na vuurvorming korter. So hierdie is n dood normale verskynsel in die improved kalibers. So in praktyk los jy die standaard dop op sy lengte en sny net die gevuurvormde doppe op die kortste dop se lengte in die batch. Ek het ook gevind dat die verkorting nie konstand is nie en kan verklaar word deur brasskonsentrasie wat nie konstand is deur die hele dop nie.

Kan Oom Shuan nou sien wat se drukvlakke Oom moes harloop om by daai snelhede uit te gekom het en dus my vermaning? Hierdie is een van die voordele van die Ackley tipe kalibers dat hulle hoe drukvlakke uitstekend hanteer maar hier het dit gewys dat dit negatief ook is wanneer n mens nie toegang het tot drukvlakmetings aperate nie. Hierdie verklaar dan ook die vroee snelhede wat herlaaiers verkry het in die kalibers met die lees van normale druktekens. deur later hierdie wildcats in toetsdruklope te skiet het gewys wat se hoe drukvlakke die manne gehardloop het om dit te verkry.

Ek het hierdie pad net soos Oom destyds gestap en is tot vandag toe dankbaar vir die sterk Ruger aksies wat ek in hulle gebruik!

Groetnis
Wouter

[shaunbaisley]

I mention the word retirement en ewe skielik is ek Oom.
Not yet 65 but close enough at 63. I decided that waiting until I had "enough" would mean I would wait forever, so I pulled the trigger on the decision and end September it is.
Getting back to the load data - 75k psi - black-sam!!!
As you say, thank goodness for the P14's strength, although it must be said that I would never have attempted that in an SMLE.
The plan now is to work up loads in 0,2 grain increments to achieve 2680 fps over the chrono, (probably around 50 grains, and then to play with the COL to tighten up the grouping. I just hope my farmer friend allows me access to the dam wall to shoot into.
The throat of the P14 takes the slightly longer case of the 303 British comfortably, so yes, I will use the shortest dimension in the batch to trim to. At this stage that is around 55,5 mm.
Once again, thanks for the interest shown in helping me. 2700 fps for a 174 grain bullet will be a hell of a hunting proposition. That equals factory 180 grain loads in the 30-06, and I used that successfully for many many years for bushbuck at ranges from 50-300 metres.
Cheers
Shaun

[tripodmvr]

I am by now used to "oom" even though it hurts when it is a pretty young thing. You give me 3 years - hope your shooting is going to be plenty in retirement.

With the longer cases do you not find difficulty in chambering? I am still looking for a reason for the high ES. My prediction of 50,2 to 50,5 will be close to 2700fps. Maybe go up in 0,1 grain and see what results you get. The group sizes should show something. Take some pics and place them here - if you battle send them to tripodmvr at gmail dot com and I will do it.

[shaunbaisley]

No. No trouble chambering the longer cases, but then I would not expect to have any trouble. This a the original WW1 barrel by Winchester, chambered to take the Mk 7 303 which you have already confirmed has a longer case than the Epps case. The Epps conversion on my rifle reamed the chamber without removing the barrel for headspacing, so the throat dimension from the bolt face would still be the original length.
Or am I missing something here?
Be good.
Shaun

[DOGoosen]

Hi manne, ek het n no.4 in Epps en kry mooi resultate binne sy 53k psi perke (so voorspel deur QL) maar ek sukkel met my magasyn wat veroorsaak dat die doppies vreeslik beskadig word met voer in die kamer in wat moontlik doplewe gaan beperk. Ek het nou al so bietjie aan die oortjies (tabs) gebuig maar die probleem gaan nie weg nie, enige advies?

[DOGoosen]

Hi manne, ek het n no.4 in Epps en kry mooi resultate binne sy 53k psi perke (so voorspel deur QL) maar ek sukkel met my magasyn wat veroorsaak dat die doppies vreeslik beskadig word met voer in die kamer in wat moontlik doplewe gaan beperk. Ek het nou al so bietjie aan die oortjies (tabs) gebuig maar die probleem gaan nie weg nie, enige advies?

Sien aangehegte foto, kan daar óf moet daar dalk aan die skerp rand/ lip van die kamer net bokant die "ramp" (die geel merkie) afgewerk word want dit is waar my dopnekke en skouer teen beskadig word? Die geel merkie aan die kant is aanduidend van waar ek dink die "extractor" spasie nie groot genoeg gesny is nie, is my aannames korrek?

[shaunb]

HI Guys.
Just a quick update on a 10 year old thread about my P14 and its long throat.
I finally managed to get around to picking up some 215gr round-nose bullets from Andre' of Claw Bullets renown. When setting the bullet length so that it will just fit into the magazine, I find the base of the bullet to be exactly at the base of the neck - perfect in my amateur opinion.
However with the bullet seated out this far, it still has a clearance from the start of the lands of about 3mm. That is crazy, but as was suggested 10 years ago, this is not necessarily a problem. Hopefully I can get around to firing this thing one of these days.
In the meantime, lacking definitive load data, it is my intention to use the Sonchem data for S355 in the 8x57 using 220gr bullets. I figure the proportions of case capacity to bullet weight must be almost identical. Conservatism will be the order of the day given my earlier lapse in common sense all those years ago. I'm really looking for something that will shoot 2MOA at around 23-2400fps.
Any thoughts on this course of action.
As always, much appreciated.
Shaun

[Ds J]

If you can supply the QL folks with some data like case capacity I am pretty sure that they would be able to calculate a starting load.

[tripodmvr]

Start load - 42gr S355. Move up in 1gr increments and stop when you exceed 2480fps. If you want a slower speed, there is a node close to 2330fps.

Still had your rifle info under Shaun Baisley.

[shaunb]

Thank you tripodmvr. Again you have gone beyond what I could have hoped for. The Sonchem loads for 8x57 with 220gr bullet are 42-45grains, so it seems my original plan to use that as a guide would have put me right in the ballpark.
I am perfectly happy with a speed of 2330fps, so that will be my initial target velocity, and then reduce COL to fine-tune for accuracy. I'll start at the maximum COL that will fit in the magazine, being 78mm, and as I said that will result in a "jump" of 3mm to the lands. That's how long the throat is cut on this rifle.
Thanks again guys

[shaunb]

So things move very slowly in my world.
Just come back from the range here in East London testing the Claw 215 grain bullets with S355.
Unfortunately the chrono at the range was playing up because the results are crazy
RWS large rifle primers, Norma cases and CoL 76mm S355 lot 010, screens 5m from muzzle
42 grains
2207 2156 2181 2168
43 grains
1716 1790 1682 1733
44 grains
2275 2273 2316 2262
45 grains
1859 1866 1852 1885
Ignoring the 43 and 45 grain results, it appears that 2 grains of powder is giving an increase of 100fps.
So given that there is a node at 2330, I'm going to assume 45 grains should put me on the mark. Hopefully the range sorts out their chrono to confirm my assumptions, because I want to play with the CoL. Groups at 25metres on all these loads looks good.

[treeman]

Dont let the long leade make you despondent. It is cut to accommodate a 215gr bullet. a long jump does not point to poor precision and many European rifles with long leades shoot MOA without a problem.

****************************************
Why have a chamber that can accommodate that length of bullet but the magazine only allows a bullet of 78 mm ?

[Capt. Yoda]

Dont let the long leade make you despondent. It is cut to accommodate a 215gr bullet. a long jump does not point to poor precision and many European rifles with long leades shoot MOA without a problem.

****************************************
Why have a chamber that can accommodate that length of bullet but the magazine only allows a bullet of 78 mm ?

My 30.06 can take a round with an OAL of 92mm in the magazine (215gr Hybrid) but it will also shoot a 125gr ballistic tip with a OAL of around 84mm into very small groups, don't sweat the jump to much