Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
- tripodmvr
- Administrator

- Posts: 21608
- Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:31 pm
Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
Met erkenning aan Proudprado op Gunsite forum.
http://citizen.co.za/news/news-national ... m-license/
http://citizen.co.za/news/news-national ... m-license/
.22 Krico, Howa 223 Varminter, 243 AI Musgrave RSA, Ruger RPR 243, P14 - 7 x 64, BSA 303 Sporter, 375 H&H Musgrave, 30-06 Ruger No. 1A, Khan O/U 12br, Norinco O/U 12br
-
Carl
- Hero Member

- Posts: 4793
- Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:09 pm
Re: Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
I then put it to you that the CFR can now be taken to court based on this judgement!?She said it was crucial to the criminal justice system that the requirements for the renewal of firearm licences be complied with to the letter.
Groete,
9mmP, .22, 243 , 270 , 30-06 , 12 Boor, 9.3x62 die "one gun" solution
9mmP, .22, 243 , 270 , 30-06 , 12 Boor, 9.3x62 die "one gun" solution
- Hein M.
- Hero Member

- Posts: 3887
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:52 pm
Re: Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
Is hy aanvanklik gearresteer vir die hernuwings-oortreding of vir iets anders?
- Ashley
- Hero Member

- Posts: 1046
- Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:40 pm
Re: Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
Hernuwings oortreding.Hein M. wrote:Is hy aanvanklik gearresteer vir die hernuwings-oortreding of vir iets anders?
Onwettiglik in besit van n wapen/ ongelisensieerde wapen...
Maar ja, hoe het hulle geweet om agter hom aan te kom?
Groete
Howa 30-06
Musgrave 7x57
Mossberg 12br
CZ 9mmP
Howa 30-06
Musgrave 7x57
Mossberg 12br
CZ 9mmP
- Hein M.
- Hero Member

- Posts: 3887
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:52 pm
Re: Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
Moontlik was daar iets anders wat die aandag op hom gevestig het...Ashley wrote:Hernuwings oortreding.Hein M. wrote:Is hy aanvanklik gearresteer vir die hernuwings-oortreding of vir iets anders?
Onwettiglik in besit van n wapen/ ongelisensieerde wapen...
Maar ja, hoe het hulle geweet om agter hom aan te kom?
-
Eugene
- Hero Member

- Posts: 6027
- Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:41 am
Re: Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
Ek vermoed hy is in 'n roetine padblokkade afgetrek en gevra vir lisensie vir die wapen. Die SAPD het bloot nie die tyd en die mannekrag om elke ou wat se lisensie verval het, te gaan soek nie.....Hein M. wrote:Is hy aanvanklik gearresteer vir die hernuwings-oortreding of vir iets anders?
Aim small, miss small
- Ashley
- Hero Member

- Posts: 1046
- Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:40 pm
Re: Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
Ek stem. Moes so iets gewees het want hulle het nie eers tyd vir kluis besoeke nie..Eugene wrote:Ek vermoed hy is in 'n roetine padblokkade afgetrek en gevra vir lisensie vir die wapen. Die SAPD het bloot nie die tyd en die mannekrag om elke ou wat se lisensie verval het, te gaan soek nie.....Hein M. wrote:Is hy aanvanklik gearresteer vir die hernuwings-oortreding of vir iets anders?
Groete
Howa 30-06
Musgrave 7x57
Mossberg 12br
CZ 9mmP
Howa 30-06
Musgrave 7x57
Mossberg 12br
CZ 9mmP
- HeinrichPrinsloo
- Sr. Member

- Posts: 314
- Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:09 pm
Re: Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
I share you this from Mr Martin MJ Hoods FB page :
CRIMINAL CONVICTION FOR FAILING TO RENEW A GUN LICENCE
There has been an article in the Cape Times reporting that a Mr Derick Johnson was convicted in the Parow Regional Court for failing to renew his firearm licence and was fined R10 000.00 and given a suspended period of imprisonment.
This brief report is intended to provide comment on and provide guidance as to what to do should anyone be charged with an offence for failing to renew their firearm licence.
It goes without saying that you should immediately obtain the services of an attorney if you are charged with an offence. You can email the details of any charges to martin@mjhood.co.za or info@mjhood.co.za and we will endeavour to help you.
The news report is a summary of what happened. In creating a summary, inevitably some detail is omitted. Additionally, reporters are expected to write reports on a wide variety of topics where they have little or no understanding of the subject matter and therefore rely on information given to them which may not be accurate or may be deliberately misleading. We also have to take into account the possibility of bias in the reporting itself. As firearms owner, we all know that inherently the press at the best of times is neutral to us and in many instances is antagonistic towards us.
I am now going to comment generally on why a failure to renew a firearm licence is, generally speaking in my view, not a criminal offence. Please note that until I have further information on the specific details of the Johnson case, I will not comment further on it.
Firstly, in order to be convicted of a criminal offence other than one which is based upon negligence (such as culpable homicide) the State must prove beyond reasonable doubt that you intended to commit an offence. There are numerous cases that deal with firearms and ammunition that have clearly stated a mere failure to do something or a mere possession of arms or ammunition does not in itself mean intent exists. Intent is a specific state of mind where you know that you have or are about to commit an offence, you understand what you have done or are about to do is an offence and you proceed in the knowledge knowing that it is an offence. A mere failure due to an oversight to renew a licence because it had expired without your knowledge does not mean that you can be convicted of the criminal offence of illegally possessing a firearm.
There is a distinction in my view of possession of a firearm without a licence and possession of a firearm with an expired licence. The second is merely an administrative error or oversight and the former may constitute a far more serious offence.
In our current context the following circumstances must also be taken into account. Many of us have green licences and the Court Order of Mr Justice Prinsloo in my view, is unequivocal, inasmuch as it declared all green licences valid pending the finalisation of the main application instituted by SA Hunters and Game Conservation Association. That has not happened so the Court Order remains effective and therefore if a person has a green licence, then the existence of the green licence should be sufficient to rebut any argument about intending to possess a firearm illegally if a white licence has expired. The argument is quite simply, “I have a green licence and I believed that in terms of the Court Order of Mr Justice Prinsloo my licence was valid.” Therefore there can be no intent.
Secondly there are the various legal challenges both of a Constitutional and a practical nature to Sections 24 and 28 of the Firearms Control Act underway in the North Gauteng High Court. Any reasonable Magistrate as well as the National Prosecuting Authority if aware of these constitutional challenges, should have halted any prosecution pending a decision of the relevant court on these legal challenges.
Finally, I believe any charge of illegal possession of a firearm based on an expired licence is incorrect.
Section 122 of the Act provides a far more reasonable alternative to a person who did not renew their licence and where intention to commit an offence may be proven. Section 122 provides for the imposition of an administrative fine where a person fails to comply with any provision of the Act. Section 121 of the Act provides that a discretion is granted to any judicial officer to sentence to a fine or to imprisonment for any contravention of the Act, and therefore the judicial officer can refer the matter to administrative adjudication.
If an administrative fine is paid, it is not recorded as a criminal conviction.
It seems to me that the approach of the court and the prosecutor in the circumstances was completely inappropriate and harsh.
For any further advice or assistance you are welcome to contact me.
CRIMINAL CONVICTION FOR FAILING TO RENEW A GUN LICENCE
There has been an article in the Cape Times reporting that a Mr Derick Johnson was convicted in the Parow Regional Court for failing to renew his firearm licence and was fined R10 000.00 and given a suspended period of imprisonment.
This brief report is intended to provide comment on and provide guidance as to what to do should anyone be charged with an offence for failing to renew their firearm licence.
It goes without saying that you should immediately obtain the services of an attorney if you are charged with an offence. You can email the details of any charges to martin@mjhood.co.za or info@mjhood.co.za and we will endeavour to help you.
The news report is a summary of what happened. In creating a summary, inevitably some detail is omitted. Additionally, reporters are expected to write reports on a wide variety of topics where they have little or no understanding of the subject matter and therefore rely on information given to them which may not be accurate or may be deliberately misleading. We also have to take into account the possibility of bias in the reporting itself. As firearms owner, we all know that inherently the press at the best of times is neutral to us and in many instances is antagonistic towards us.
I am now going to comment generally on why a failure to renew a firearm licence is, generally speaking in my view, not a criminal offence. Please note that until I have further information on the specific details of the Johnson case, I will not comment further on it.
Firstly, in order to be convicted of a criminal offence other than one which is based upon negligence (such as culpable homicide) the State must prove beyond reasonable doubt that you intended to commit an offence. There are numerous cases that deal with firearms and ammunition that have clearly stated a mere failure to do something or a mere possession of arms or ammunition does not in itself mean intent exists. Intent is a specific state of mind where you know that you have or are about to commit an offence, you understand what you have done or are about to do is an offence and you proceed in the knowledge knowing that it is an offence. A mere failure due to an oversight to renew a licence because it had expired without your knowledge does not mean that you can be convicted of the criminal offence of illegally possessing a firearm.
There is a distinction in my view of possession of a firearm without a licence and possession of a firearm with an expired licence. The second is merely an administrative error or oversight and the former may constitute a far more serious offence.
In our current context the following circumstances must also be taken into account. Many of us have green licences and the Court Order of Mr Justice Prinsloo in my view, is unequivocal, inasmuch as it declared all green licences valid pending the finalisation of the main application instituted by SA Hunters and Game Conservation Association. That has not happened so the Court Order remains effective and therefore if a person has a green licence, then the existence of the green licence should be sufficient to rebut any argument about intending to possess a firearm illegally if a white licence has expired. The argument is quite simply, “I have a green licence and I believed that in terms of the Court Order of Mr Justice Prinsloo my licence was valid.” Therefore there can be no intent.
Secondly there are the various legal challenges both of a Constitutional and a practical nature to Sections 24 and 28 of the Firearms Control Act underway in the North Gauteng High Court. Any reasonable Magistrate as well as the National Prosecuting Authority if aware of these constitutional challenges, should have halted any prosecution pending a decision of the relevant court on these legal challenges.
Finally, I believe any charge of illegal possession of a firearm based on an expired licence is incorrect.
Section 122 of the Act provides a far more reasonable alternative to a person who did not renew their licence and where intention to commit an offence may be proven. Section 122 provides for the imposition of an administrative fine where a person fails to comply with any provision of the Act. Section 121 of the Act provides that a discretion is granted to any judicial officer to sentence to a fine or to imprisonment for any contravention of the Act, and therefore the judicial officer can refer the matter to administrative adjudication.
If an administrative fine is paid, it is not recorded as a criminal conviction.
It seems to me that the approach of the court and the prosecutor in the circumstances was completely inappropriate and harsh.
For any further advice or assistance you are welcome to contact me.
Don't get confused between my personality and my attitude
My personality is who I am, my attitude depends on who you are
My personality is who I am, my attitude depends on who you are
- Hein M.
- Hero Member

- Posts: 3887
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:52 pm
Re: Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
Baie dankie!
Interessante wending...
Interessante wending...
-
Carl
- Hero Member

- Posts: 4793
- Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:09 pm
Re: Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
Weereens ek het nie al die besonderhede nie en die nuus berig is nie 100% duidelik nie. Maar soos Eugene noem, as ek nie 'n lisensie het wat op datum is nie, gaan ek nie met my vuurwapen rond ry nie!!
Groete,
9mmP, .22, 243 , 270 , 30-06 , 12 Boor, 9.3x62 die "one gun" solution
9mmP, .22, 243 , 270 , 30-06 , 12 Boor, 9.3x62 die "one gun" solution
- Boerboel
- Full Member

- Posts: 139
- Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:51 pm
Re: Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
Dit het nou uit gekom dat die persoon, sy wapen op sy dogter se kerel gerig het of op hom geskiet het, Die het klagte gemaak en toe later terug getrek, en dis toe dat die staats aanklaer, hom toe gaan annklae het vir die lisensie wat verval het, as hy beter regshulp gehad het was die saak uit gegooi.
Gaan lees die file wat hulle nou op gelaai het op die Gosa facebook blad oor die hele storie
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2471105 ... =bookmarks
Gaan lees die file wat hulle nou op gelaai het op die Gosa facebook blad oor die hele storie
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2471105 ... =bookmarks
IF GUNS WERE OUTLAWED ONLY OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS
Mauser 22LR
Musgrave 7x57
Howa 6.5 PRC
Zastava 375HH
Jacques van der Merwe
Mauser 22LR
Musgrave 7x57
Howa 6.5 PRC
Zastava 375HH
Jacques van der Merwe
-
Alwin
- Hero Member

- Posts: 1875
- Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:17 pm
Re: Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
Hy het skuldig gepleit op die hernuwings aanklag. As hy opgelet het in die klas was die saak heel waarskynlik uitgegooi of uitgestel tot na April se hooggeregshofsaak oor die hernuwings.Boerboel wrote:Dit het nou uit gekom dat die persoon, sy wapen op sy dogter se kerel gerig het of op hom geskiet het, Die het klagte gemaak en toe later terug getrek, en dis toe dat die staats aanklaer, hom toe gaan annklae het vir die lisensie wat verval het, as hy beter regshulp gehad het was die saak uit gegooi.
Gaan lees die file wat hulle nou op gelaai het op die Gosa facebook blad oor die hele storie
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2471105 ... =bookmarks
Pasop vir goedkoop of gratis regshulp! Dis gewoonlik duurder op die lang termyn...
-
Eugene
- Hero Member

- Posts: 6027
- Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:41 am
Re: Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
Ek dink nie die kriteria moet gratis of goedkoop reghulp wees nie. Jy kan 'n duur prokureur ook kry wat bloot net geen kennis/belang van vuurwapensake het nie. Ons is in vandag se tye te geneig om te aanvaar dat die duurste ding noodwendig die beste ding is.... My raad sal wees om in so situasie iemand te kry wat kennis het van vuurwapenwetgewing en gereeld daarmee werk. Onthou, jy word nie Woensdag gearresteer en dan moet jy Donderdagoggend in die hof pleit nie. Mens kan enige prokureur gebruik vir 'n borgaansoek en dan 'n kundige kry voor jy moet pleit. Sluit aan by GOSA en laat jou prok hulle kontak of kry dan by hulle die kontak besonderhede van iemand met die regte kennis.Alwin wrote: Hy het skuldig gepleit op die hernuwings aanklag. As hy opgelet het in die klas was die saak heel waarskynlik uitgegooi of uitgestel tot na April se hooggeregshofsaak oor die hernuwings.
Pasop vir goedkoop of gratis regshulp! Dis gewoonlik duurder op die lang termyn...
Dan moet mens ook besef dat dit nie noodwendig net die prok se skuld is nie. Ons het weereens nie al die feite nie, maar baie kliente het nie die aptyt vir 'n verhoor nie en wil so vinnig as moontlik skuldig pleit, die boete betaal en die ding afhandel, meestal teen sy/haar se prokureur se advies in. Dan jare later byt jou oorhaastige besluit jou aan die gat en dan raak dit skielik die prokureur/advokaat se skuld.....
Aim small, miss small
-
Alwin
- Hero Member

- Posts: 1875
- Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:17 pm
Re: Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
Goeie advies hier ^^^Eugene wrote:Ek dink nie die kriteria moet gratis of goedkoop reghulp wees nie. Jy kan 'n duur prokureur ook kry wat bloot net geen kennis/belang van vuurwapensake het nie. Ons is in vandag se tye te geneig om te aanvaar dat die duurste ding noodwendig die beste ding is.... My raad sal wees om in so situasie iemand te kry wat kennis het van vuurwapenwetgewing en gereeld daarmee werk. Onthou, jy word nie Woensdag gearresteer en dan moet jy Donderdagoggend in die hof pleit nie. Mens kan enige prokureur gebruik vir 'n borgaansoek en dan 'n kundige kry voor jy moet pleit. Sluit aan by GOSA en laat jou prok hulle kontak of kry dan by hulle die kontak besonderhede van iemand met die regte kennis.Alwin wrote: Hy het skuldig gepleit op die hernuwings aanklag. As hy opgelet het in die klas was die saak heel waarskynlik uitgegooi of uitgestel tot na April se hooggeregshofsaak oor die hernuwings.
Pasop vir goedkoop of gratis regshulp! Dis gewoonlik duurder op die lang termyn...
Baie goeie advies daar. Die betrokke persoon het nou 'n wapenwet-verwante kriminele rekord en is waarskynlik nou onbevoeg om 'n wapen te besit ook?
Dan moet mens ook besef dat dit nie noodwendig net die prok se skuld is nie. Ons het weereens nie al die feite nie, maar baie kliente het nie die aptyt vir 'n verhoor nie en wil so vinnig as moontlik skuldig pleit, die boete betaal en die ding afhandel, meestal teen sy/haar se prokureur se advies in. Dan jare later byt jou oorhaastige besluit jou aan die gat en dan raak dit skielik die prokureur/advokaat se skuld.....
Die betrokke "skuldige" persoon het seker nou 'n kriminele rekord en is onbevoeg om wapens te besit?
-
Eugene
- Hero Member

- Posts: 6027
- Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:41 am
Re: Vervolging vir versuim om lisensie te hernu
Kriminele rekord - beslis! Maar net die Hof kan jou onbevoeg vind en ek weet nie of so ondersoek gehou en bevinding gemaak is nie. Dan hy 'n opdraande stryd gaan hê om in die toekoms 'n wapen te besit, is verseker....
Aim small, miss small

