243 Win en 103gr ELD-x en 90gr Sierra TGK

[Danie01]

Goeiedag,

Ek het bietjie insette nodig.

Ek help n vriend om sy 243 win bogenoemde koele te laai.

Hy het vitha N550 gekoop, maar ons kry die spoed met seker 2 - 3gr minder as wat deur Vitha voorspel asook QL. Die gevolg is n laer node en minder dopvulling.

Ek het dieselfde met my 6mm dasher asook 22-250 ondervind met N540 asook N550.

Wat stel julle manne voor? Hoe ek by die vitha wat vinniger brand as wat voorspel is of kyk en na n ander kruit of vat ek n stadiger vitha soos bv N560 ipv N550?

Waar voorspel julle die nodes vir die twee koele?

Loop = 23,7 duim
Dop kapasiteit = 56,2gr (Winchester doppe)
90gr TGK = 72mm tpl @ 38gr N550 @ 3050fps

103gr ELD-X = 72mm TPL @ 37,5gr N550 @ 2915fps

Hoor graag van jul

Byvoorbaat baie dankie

Groete
Danie

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[Mellies]

VV se 5-reeks is baie warmder as wat ons op papier lees.

As dopvulling die enigste probleem is gaan die 1-reeks beter doen. Jy gaan net spoed met 80-120voete inboet as ek moet raai.

Die slim manne met QL sal seker `n beter antwoord hê.

Met `n vleisie...

[tripodmvr]

Ek het nog slegs na die 90gr Sierra geloer. Julle spoed is 350vps vinniger as wat QL bereken. Een ding wat julle kan doen en kyk of dit 'n verandering maak, is om die TPL na 'n meer normale 69mm te verminder. As dit die spoed drasties laat sak was julle in die lande. Dit sal ook 'n beter greep op die koeël verskaf om behoorlike nekspanning te hê.

[Toyrsi]

Het ook al n paar ladings op Vita N5 reeks gedoen en almal het vinniger gebrand as QL se default.

[Danie01]

Ek het nog slegs na die 90gr Sierra geloer. Julle spoed is 350vps vinniger as wat QL bereken. Een ding wat julle kan doen en kyk of dit 'n verandering maak, is om die TPL na 'n meer normale 69mm te verminder. As dit die spoed drasties laat sak was julle in die lande. Dit sal ook 'n beter greep op die koeël verskaf om behoorlike nekspanning te hê.

Dankie oom Maruis,

Ons het wel n sprong (0,5mm) na die lande op die boere manier gemeet. Die koeltjies is baie lank, met n lang gedeelte tussen die ogief en die punt van die koeel.

350fps ja, maar ek ondervind dieselfde met my 243AI, 6mm dasher en 22-250.

Ek bereken die node vir die 90gr, na kalibreer by 2941fps?

Ek neem aan dit sal beter wees om na n kruit te kyk wat stadiger verbrand?

Die VV N150/;160 ens brand wel stadiger maar dan verloor mens weer spoed.

Groete


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[Danie01]

Oom Driepoot,

Sal oom my dalk kan help om die nodes te kry?

Waar voorspel oom die nodes en watter ander kruit sal oom aanbeveel?

Byvoorbaat baie dankie
Danie

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[Capt. Yoda]

As ek moet raai dink ek amper daai 23.iets duim loop gaan dalk net te kort wees om stadiger kruit soos N160 en N165 te gebruik.

[tripodmvr]

Oom Driepoot,

Sal oom my dalk kan help om die nodes te kry?

Waar voorspel oom die nodes en watter ander kruit sal oom aanbeveel?

Byvoorbaat baie dankie
Danie

Sent from my SM-N970F using Tapatalk

Het julle probeer met die korter TPL wat ek voorgestel het. Die baie hoë brandtempo is nie altyd bevorderlik vir akkuraatheid nie. 3 skote behoort te wys of TPL 'n rol speel.

[Danie01]

Oom Driepoot,

Sal oom my dalk kan help om die nodes te kry?

Waar voorspel oom die nodes en watter ander kruit sal oom aanbeveel?

Byvoorbaat baie dankie
Danie

Sent from my SM-N970F using Tapatalk

Het julle probeer met die korter TPL wat ek voorgestel het. Die baie hoë brandtempo is nie altyd bevorderlik vir akkuraatheid nie. 3 skote behoort te wys of TPL 'n rol speel.

Ons het nognie weer kans gekry om te gaan skiet nie, maar sal dit probeer en laat weet, dankie oom Driepoot.

Groete
Danie

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[Danie01]

Goeiedag oom Driepoot,

Hiermee die spoed nadat ons tpl korter gemaak het.

90gr Sierra @ 2785fps met 37,5gr N550 en 70mm tpl

103gr eldx @ 2720fps met 37,5gr N550 en 70mm tpl

Kan oom ons dalk help met die nodespoed vir die twee asb?

Groete
Danie

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[Dale SH]

Danie.

If I may ask before I make a suggestion, what is your application for these two bullet combinations.
And what sort of muzzle velocity where you hoping to achieve ?

[Danie01]

Hi Dale,

It is for my friends rilfe and the application is for hunting.

He want to shoot the heavier bullets and are testing the higher BC bullets in his rifle.

He hope to shoot around 3050fps with the 90gr and 2900fps with the 103gr bullets.

After my post earlier today he shot the 90gr TGK at 3063fps with 40gr N550 and 70mm tpl.

My calculation for the node for the 90gr was around 3055fps.

I don't have the bullet file for the 103gr Eldx.

Kind regards

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[Dale SH]

Good morning Danie.

Thank you for your reply.
In terms of the burn rate you are experiencing with Viht N550, you must remember that the default burn rate is an indicative factor.
It is purely an indication of how the propellant "performs" under test conditions in a "bomb test".
Please read here for a in depth technical discussion on the "bomb test".
https://www.chuckhawks.com/powder_cartridge_testing.htm

So indulge me if I get a bit technical here.
The bottom line is that this bomb test is purely an indicator of the propellants properties based on a small test sample run at "low" pressure.
The propellant manufacturer can not do this test and simulate a 50 to 60 000 psi load, and they can not determine how the propellant will react in every different cartridge with different components, jump to the lands,bearing surfaces, barrel length and a whole lot of different parameters that are unique to your rifle and components and which influence the powders performance (burn rate factor in other words)
Lets take an example.
Look at Vihtavouri"s website and take their reloading data for the 243 win with a 90 grain bullet.

Test barrel: 580 mm (23”), 1 in 10” twist
Primers: Large Rifle
Cases: Lapua, trim-to length 51,80 mm (2.039”)

Viht 243 win.jpg

If you reverse engineer these figures in quickload with N550 powder you will see that you have to change the default burn rate up substantially to calibrate their loads (exactly what you are experiencing at the moment).
The same will apply in the 22-250, 25-06, 270 Win etc as all these cartridges fall into the overbore category.

Lets now look at another cartridge.

Test barrel: 620 mm (24½”), 1 in 10” twist
Primers: Large Rifle
Cases: Lapua, trim-to length 63,10 mm (2.484”)

Viht N550 30-06.jpg

If you reverse engineer these figures in quickload using their exact parameters and components you will see that your predictions and their actual data is so close that you have to adjust the default BRF so slightly it is negligible.

Powder manufacturers test their powders across a spectrum of cartridges and give us guidelines to follow.
However once again these tests are done using specific components and test barrels.
Yours may be different so your results may also be different.

Bottom line is that you can not blindly believe that your initial prediction with QL will be accurate as there are too many factors to consider as mentioned above.
It is always best to follow the powder manufacturers guidelines and cross reference and reverse engineer their data with your QL prediction and see if you experience any major discrepancies.
Should you need to adjust your BRF substantially to calibrate with Their achieved figures you have to ask your self some questions:

For example:
Are you dealing with an overbore cartridge ?
Is your bullet in or too close to the lands ?
What barrel length are you comparing too ?

Once you have identified where your major differences are coming from you will have an idea as to where to rectify the problem.
In your case right off the bat you know you dealing with an overbore cartridge and secondly you may have had the bullet too close or in the rifling.
Now that you have shortened your TPL and the BRF hasn't changed much we can eliminate that particular criteria.
Now if we cross reference Vihtavouri's 243 Win load data we can identify that N550 does indeed burn substantially faster in this cartridge ( higher BRF near 0.51) than the default.
Our mind should be at rest now knowing this fact and we can continue to calibrate our load.

In your case having identified that Viht N550 may be a little too fast for your bullet weight in the 243 Win (especially with the 103 grain bullet) I would consider going to a slower powder (Norma MRP for the 103 grain bullet) to achieve the node you want with better case fill and less pressure

Apologies for the long post but I trust that this information will help you and other users work more efficiently with the software.

PS. Here is the 103 grain ELDX file you need.
".243, 103, Hornady ELD-X 24550 ","103","1.129","4.44","6.17","4.57","","2",".243",".512",".512","","","","","","","","","","25"

[tripodmvr]

Die groot val in spoed dui daarop dat julle redelik styf in die lande was. Nieteenstaande is die BRF nog hoog. Ek het egter die volgende nodes bereken :-

90gr
39,1gr = 2894vps en dopvulling van 80%
41,1gr = 3019vps en 84%

103gr
39,3gr = 2832vps en 83%
41,2gr = 2951vps en 88%

VV N560 wil half beter lyk met goeie dopvulling en so 50vps wins in spoed vir die 90greiner.

MRP gee teoreties nog so bietjie spoed met baie veilige druk en goeie dopvul.

[Danie01]

Good morning Danie.

Thank you for your reply.
In terms of the burn rate you are experiencing with Viht N550, you must remember that the default burn rate is an indicative factor.
It is purely an indication of how the propellant "performs" under test conditions in a "bomb test".
Please read here for a in depth technical discussion on the "bomb test".
https://www.chuckhawks.com/powder_cartridge_testing.htm

So indulge me if I get a bit technical here.
The bottom line is that this bomb test is purely an indicator of the propellants properties based on a small test sample run at "low" pressure.
The propellant manufacturer can not do this test and simulate a 50 to 60 000 psi load, and they can not determine how the propellant will react in every different cartridge with different components, jump to the lands,bearing surfaces, barrel length and a whole lot of different parameters that are unique to your rifle and components and which influence the powders performance (burn rate factor in other words)
Lets take an example.
Look at Vihtavouri"s website and take their reloading data for the 243 win with a 90 grain bullet.

Test barrel: 580 mm (23”), 1 in 10” twist
Primers: Large Rifle
Cases: Lapua, trim-to length 51,80 mm (2.039”)

Viht 243 win.jpg

If you reverse engineer these figures in quickload with N550 powder you will see that you have to change the default burn rate up substantially to calibrate their loads (exactly what you are experiencing at the moment).
The same will apply in the 22-250, 25-06, 270 Win etc as all these cartridges fall into the overbore category.

Lets now look at another cartridge.

Test barrel: 620 mm (24½”), 1 in 10” twist
Primers: Large Rifle
Cases: Lapua, trim-to length 63,10 mm (2.484”)

Viht N550 30-06.jpg

If you reverse engineer these figures in quickload using their exact parameters and components you will see that your predictions and their actual data is so close that you have to adjust the default BRF so slightly it is negligible.

Powder manufacturers test their powders across a spectrum of cartridges and give us guidelines to follow.
However once again these tests are done using specific components and test barrels.
Yours may be different so your results may also be different.

Bottom line is that you can not blindly believe that your initial prediction with QL will be accurate as there are too many factors to consider as mentioned above.
It is always best to follow the powder manufacturers guidelines and cross reference and reverse engineer their data with your QL prediction and see if you experience any major discrepancies.
Should you need to adjust your BRF substantially to calibrate with Their achieved figures you have to ask your self some questions:

For example:
Are you dealing with an overbore cartridge ?
Is your bullet in or too close to the lands ?
What barrel length are you comparing too ?

Once you have identified where your major differences are coming from you will have an idea as to where to rectify the problem.
In your case right off the bat you know you dealing with an overbore cartridge and secondly you may have had the bullet too close or in the rifling.
Now that you have shortened your TPL and the BRF hasn't changed much we can eliminate that particular criteria.
Now if we cross reference Vihtavouri's 243 Win load data we can identify that N550 does indeed burn substantially faster in this cartridge ( higher BRF near 0.51) than the default.
Our mind should be at rest now knowing this fact and we can continue to calibrate our load.

In your case having identified that Viht N550 may be a little too fast for your bullet weight in the 243 Win (especially with the 103 grain bullet) I would consider going to a slower powder (Norma MRP for the 103 grain bullet) to achieve the node you want with better case fill and less pressure

Apologies for the long post but I trust that this information will help you and other users work more efficiently with the software.

PS. Here is the 103 grain ELDX file you need.
".243, 103, Hornady ELD-X 24550 ","103","1.129","4.44","6.17","4.57","","2",".243",".512",".512","","","","","","","","","","25"

Thank you Dale, your comments make sense and I am a bit more informed.

Thank you for the bullet file as well.

Question: I know there was a topic regarding the weighting factor for the 243win, do you ever change the weighting factor or not?

If I change the weighting factor to 0,46 as recommended by Pierre vd Walt, ql correspond better to what is actually happening, thus less adjustment to the burning rate factor. The difference in node speed is around 30fps and the load for the two different nodes is basically the same, but projects different speed.

If you only use the standard weighting factor on ql you will not reach the recommended speed (as by powder and bullet manufacturers) on some of the bullets without going into the red.

Regards
Danie

Sent from my SM-N970F using Tapatalk

[Danie01]

Die groot val in spoed dui daarop dat julle redelik styf in die lande was. Nieteenstaande is die BRF nog hoog. Ek het egter die volgende nodes bereken :-

90gr
39,1gr = 2894vps en dopvulling van 80%
41,1gr = 3019vps en 84%

103gr
39,3gr = 2832vps en 83%
41,2gr = 2951vps en 88%

VV N560 wil half beter lyk met goeie dopvulling en so 50vps wins in spoed vir die 90greiner.

MRP gee teoreties nog so bietjie spoed met baie veilige druk en goeie dopvul.

Dankie oom Marius,

Ja dit blyk of ons wel te na of in die lande was en dit die rede vir die groot verskil in spoed.

Ek het min of meer dieselfde nodespoed as oom bereken as jy die weighting factor standaard hou, maar kry 3055fps as ek die weighting factor aanpas soos voorgestel deur Pierre vd Walt.

Ek stel nie gewoonlik aan die weighting factor nie maar met die 243win is dit asof dit beter voorspel wat in werklikheid gebeur as wat jy die weighting factor standaard los.

Ek sou voorstel dat hy dan rondom daai twee voorspellings laai en kyk wat werk die beste.

Baie dankie vir die hulp. Ek het nie besef die spoed gaan so vinnig op as jy in of naby die lande is nie.

Mooi dag verder

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[Dale SH]

Danie.
By changing the weighting factor, you are manipulating the BRF to try and get your figures closer to default.
In my lengthy reply above i took the time to explain why BRF is never close to default in certain cartridges.
BRF is unique to each cartridge and rifle.
Do not try and manipulate the other parameters as all you are doing is masking pressure and this may be dangerous in certain cartridges.
BRF is what it is and as per my post you need to analyse why you achieve a certain BRF in a selected cartridge within your parameters.

The difference in weighting factor for example between a 243 Win and 243 Ackley is there for a reason - simply because the Ackley shape with less body taper, better head spacing and the angle of the shoulder reduce bolt thrust and pressure throttling.
Do not change the weighting factor if you are not sure why you are doing it.

[tripodmvr]

Om aan te sluit by Dale. QL gee dalk hoër syfers as die vervaardigers, maar hier moet ons gesonde verstand gebruik. Wees konserwatief en moet nie syfers naby aan die maks druk op QL gebruik nie. Sonder om druk te kan meet is dit die veilige pad om te loop. QL se drukberekenings is 'n baie goeie "riglyn" en nie gemete waardes nie.

Ek het wel al die WF verander om die effek te sien, maar dit verlaag die druk in baie gevalle en ek soek 'n waarskuwing liefs as om syfers nader aan die teorie te kry. Die BRF is al wat ek aan verander. Gaan lees oor die kalibrering van QL en selfs die outeur van OBT hou dit as die regte metode voor.

Koeëls in die lande - gaan kyk op QL en hou jou muis op die 3626 shot start pressure. Die aanbeveling is dat jy 7200psi by die bestaande moet tel wat alreeds vertoon word (10826psi). Doen dit en kyk hoe dit die spoed verander.

[Danie01]

Dankie julle, soos ek gesê het ek verstel nie aan die weighting factor nie, behalwe hier het ek daarna begin kyk juis omdat dit so baie verskil het van ql en juis omdat dit ooreenstem met wat die vervaarsigers sê.

Ek sou ook nie na n hoër node gaan wat nie binne die standaar weighting factor se drukvlakke is nie, as julle verstaan wat ek sê.

Dink ek moet maar eerder my vriend oorreed om sy 243 te ackley, hehe.

Dankie vir julle hulp en raad. Ek was juis versigtig om aan die weighting factor te stel en dan daai inligting te gebruik sonder om by julle manne te hoor wat julle dink, nou weet ek, dankie.

Groete
Danie

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[tripodmvr]

Danie, die meeste van die inligting is verkrygbaar onder die QL hofies. Gaan lees gerus.